Curse

Jenn · Jul 14, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Another good LOL for me, "Don't swing your melee so you don't get energy and so you lose your ursan!"

Actually, serious LOL on YOU. Use your brain a bit, yea? If you're tanking, you're getting the shit pummeled out of you, which means an overflow of incoming energy. Signet of Stamina is used to buff your health, but if you attack, it goes byebye.

As for the rest of the thread, back in the old days when usually only decent players got through DoA, any build was viable. Didn't have an ele to nuke? Fine! Go SoI mesmer and fast cast some shit. I've seen almost every class in the game tank for DoA, and not using the Ursan Blessing. All it takes is good players. I used to play with some incredible folk (holla to old crew; ecko, buns, omega, lone, thargor, speedi, hollerith, etc. miss you guys!) and some of the craziest stuff got us through; and this was the "old hardmode" - a.k.a. what hard mode is now used to almost be the old NM.

For the sake of discussion, I'm using the word "tank" fairly interchangably with the ability to "hold agro" and do damage because some classes or team builds that I've used allow more/less flexibility.

Warriors - tank
Assassins - tank
Dervish - tank, other melee scythe-y things
Paragon - tank, imbagon, support w/ energy buffs (if no necro), damage (ball of agro + Cruel spear + Fevered Dreams=gg)
Ranger - tank, splinter/barrage, BHA epidemic
Elementalist - tank, nuker, snare, utility
Necromancer - BiP/spirits, orders, SS, other hexing (weaken armor is dead sexy, fyi)
Mesmer - tank, fast cast nuker, melee/caster shutdown
Ritualist - splinter barrage, rit buffer, utility/heal
Monk - tank, heal, smite

I list up there everything I've seen done in DoA with those classes (maybe forgetting some), but those are just some possibilties, of course there is more.

I think the answer to the OP's question is obvious. Of COURSE DoA can be done without ursan, or a nerfed ursan and use all sorts of classes. How do you think it was done before? I think you mean to say, "can bad players continue doing DoA utilizing creative builds?" To that, my answer is no.

cellardweller · Jul 15, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Nothing I disagree with

Expanding the list:
Warriors - Tripplechop - nothing unloads unleashes the fury of a multi-splinter team faster.
Dervish - Despite being armour observant the VoS derv still pulls out a very impressive 120+dps. A wounding strike condition/damage engine too is a great frontliner. For the more timid, you can always stand at the back and be an orders/partyheal spammer.
Ranger - BHA is always helpful.
Monk - protzzzz

Mesmer - More subtle than CoP, but almost as effective is the Fevered Dreams template.
Ele - Mind Blast/Ether Renewal gives endless options for both normal or pve skill spammage.
Assassin - The only thing that can approach a death blossom sin for dps is a MoP nec. If you get bored of that, you've always got the crit scythe template to fall back on.
Paragon - Motivation spearagon takes over the partywide heals and/or battery support while still maintaining strong ranged dps.
Ritualist - I'd skip the barrage bit, Splinter is godly and most rit builds I'd come up with would focus on maintaining that on as many physicals as possible.
Necromancer - The AP/MoP template has the single highest dps in the game at the moment, but even if that role is filled Necro's have countess other options.

tmakinen · Jul 15, 2008, 03:54 AM // 03:54

The fundamental problem with PUGs was never the absence of feasible builds for each and every profession but the complete inability of the average PUP to recognize such a build, not to mention to play one effectively. The mentality 'if it's not listed on PvXwiki as the build, it's crap' springs from a lack of understanding of the game and the subsequent inability to judge the relative merits of alternative solutions.

Any attempts to raise the average skill of PUPs to a level where grab'n go with a random mix of professions would be a reasonable tactic are doomed to failure - the large majority of players just isn't involved enough to bother learning the game.

itsvictor · Jul 15, 2008, 04:33 AM // 04:33

PUGS fail pretty hard in general mainly because of their lack of understanding of game mechanics and unwillingness to sprout a brain. All classes can be made to fit into any elite pve area, it's the stupid people that play the game that make you QQ and not be able to try things out.

JDRyder · Jul 15, 2008, 04:59 AM // 04:59

imo add a /guru in game like they did with /wiki may speed up the "lesser" players in terms of how good they are.

zwei2stein · Jul 15, 2008, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

When you have a pre-built bar - you'll exclude certain guys again. A Sabway curser runs best with physicals. And that's what would be run.

But them, there would be other prebuilt bars, say, "Fire Elementalist Blessing" with SF build, warrior tactics build as tank (sigh, but people would want it) "blessings" for each attribute ... that's lotsa builds to choose from to bit in team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The first idea would be interesting.
But then again - do you really want to have a guy monk on his assassin in DoA if he doesn't have a monk there?

Would that really matter? Id take chances with sin who knows hell get raged at to hell if he makes mistake and who might actually have played healer class before rather than ordinary monk who is accustomed to geting praise even if he does terribad job.

They would be statistically equivalent, player would be determining factor and since its pug and probably easy to use cookie build, player experience or actual skill would be nonfactor (that is, i would assume both monk and assassin to be terrible player to begin with).

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The fundamental problem with PUGs was never the absence of feasible builds for each and every profession but the complete inability of the average PUP to recognize such a build, not to mention to play one effectively. The mentality 'if it's not listed on PvXwiki as the build, it's crap' springs from a lack of understanding of the game and the subsequent inability to judge the relative merits of alternative solutions.

Its way worse than that.

See, average PUP wont even *look at wiki*. You can run wiki builds all you want but imbagon and other powerfull build for unwanted class x and be literally ignored while lfging in quite busy district.

Wiki tembuilds are learned by some kind of osmosis it seems.

the Puppeteer · Jul 15, 2008, 08:52 AM // 08:52

if ursan gets nerfed into oblivion ppl are just going to switch to the already tried out cookie cutter bilds and leaving other proffs high and dry.
yea sure - any class can tank, but pugs will always go for warriors for that - and what are the odds of getting into a pug with a leader that knows the potential of other classes?

upier · Jul 15, 2008, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

But them, there would be other prebuilt bars, say, "Fire Elementalist Blessing" with SF build, warrior tactics build as tank (sigh, but people would want it) "blessings" for each attribute ... that's lotsa builds to choose from to bit in team.

Yeah I do get that.
(Although what needs to be considered is how GW skills work. They are chapter bound. Which would mean that the Ursan would pretty much have to be made out of core skills only. And there is the issue of including OTHER PvE skills into the Blessing.)
But there is no way in hell that an Illusion Blessing can compete with a Cursing Blessing. Or a MM Blessing.
And because you only have 8 slots - the new cookie will evolve - and it will leave out certain players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Would that really matter? Id take chances with sin who knows hell get raged at to hell if he makes mistake and who might actually have played healer class before rather than ordinary monk who is accustomed to geting praise even if he does terribad job.

They would be statistically equivalent, player would be determining factor and since its pug and probably easy to use cookie build, player experience or actual skill would be nonfactor (that is, i would assume both monk and assassin to be terrible player to begin with).

But we are talking about PuGs here.
You don't know the other player. If the monk got to DoA - I'd say that he had to learn something about monking.
Whereas when it comes to the assassin - I'd say that he learned something about playing an assassin.
So - who would I want to play as monk?
That's the farming mentality. You try to make as little mistakes as possible before even entering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

still missing the point. if ursan gets nerfed people will be forced to L2P if they want to farm and theres still more than 1 way to do it, its just a lack people being creative if only 1 build is used

And what you don't get is that Ursan isn't the first skill you get after you make a PvE character.
Before you obtain Ursan - people learn enough to be able to team farm. Especially since the point of team farm is mostly executing specific actions in a specific way and that has NOTHING to do with playing.

Div · Jul 15, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

The question isn't "can we include all classes in elite pve areas." It's "are stubborn pugs willing to include all classes in elite pve areas."

PUGs are dumb. You get a lot of dumb players pugging, and more often than not, the leader isn't very smart either. That results in them being close-minded and can only accept the "standard build."

So the answer is, yes, if you go with friends, you can include all classes. But if you're pugging, don't expect them to take every class. Just like if you're pugging now. Don't expect them to take you if you're not ursan or monk.

glacialphoenix · Jul 15, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

PUGs are dumb. You get a lot of dumb players pugging, and more often than not, the leader isn't very smart either. That results in them being close-minded and can only accept the "standard build."

This.

And even if there's one smart soul amongst the lot, why would s/he trust that the others actually know how to play a build outside of cookie-cutter? There are plenty of PUGgers who manage to screw even cookie-cutter builds up just fine.

JDRyder · Jul 15, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And what you don't get is that Ursan isn't the first skill you get after you make a PvE character.
Before you obtain Ursan - people learn enough to be able to team farm. Especially since the point of team farm is mostly executing specific actions in a specific way and that has NOTHING to do with playing.

the 5hrs it takes to level up and get ursan does not mean you know how to play.

Snow Bunny · Jul 15, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

The only reason whatsoever to pug as opposed to H/Hing here is because of PvE skills.

If you're pugging DoA, you need to get some ingame friends or a good guild, because your average pug doesn't recognize that a CoP mesmer will blow shit up, they'll want a silly SF ele.

Shaz · Jul 15, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Probably not, unless you go with friends. PuG will probably have a build that every PuG is using for certain elite area. Usually the most idiot-proof build but not necessary the most efficient, that's just how it's always been.

Ate of DK · Jul 15, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I don't see a problem at all with a limitation for some professions to enter elite area's. And with the changes to the Hall of Monuments people can use different characters to unlock the statues of each elite area on their account if that's their main goal.

Offcourse I realise that there are always people who want everything on a single character. They should keep in mind that PuGs and pro farmers want everything done as fast and safe as possible. Getting that one last statue on my single character will ask some help of people that I know, friendslist, guild or alliance. On rare occassions maybe a PuG.

If people expect to roll through each elite area with all classes then it wouldn't be an elite area. Again, it's not impossible for any class but maybe a bit more challenging. GuildWars allows you to use a 2nd class to be different, and that's just cool.

N1ghtstalker · Jul 15, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

all classes have their use

the Puppeteer · Jul 15, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

without ursan it'll be the same thing as in gvg but only with pugs. - pre-set builds that work
2 Wars, 2-3 monks, 1 Rt/A, lately a Me/E water set...

edit:
at the post below- it was an example of a set build mostly used in gvgs

JDRyder · Jul 15, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

umm dont think you need a flag runner in Pve :P

upier · Jul 15, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

the 5hrs it takes to level up and get ursan does not mean you know how to play.

If you are doing Ursan teams then you'll have max Norn.
Which means you unlocked HM.
Which means you've completed the game.
Which means if those players suck - everyone that plays PvE sucks.

FlamingMetroid · Jul 15, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you are doing Ursan teams then you'll have max Norn.
Which means you unlocked HM.
Which means you've completed the game.
Which means if those players suck - everyone that plays PvE sucks.

I completed PvE a loooong time ago on an assassin with 3 fire magic skills on my bar
completing the game != good at it

JDRyder · Jul 15, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you are doing Ursan teams then you'll have max Norn.
Which means you unlocked HM.
Which means you've completed the game.
Which means if those players suck - everyone that plays PvE sucks.

none of this makes u a good player or means you understand any thing about the game other than how to move and mash keys